2009 Public Statements
Interview with Tom Ellis of Kathimerini
Assistant Secretary Philip H. Gordon
Corfu, Greece
June 27, 2009
Question: Let me start with the name issue. Nimetz met the guys after quite a while. We had elections in one country, presidential elections in the (inaudible) we had European elections here, so supposedly we are moving forward. Nimetz is coming here next week or the week after. He has proposed the name Republic of Northern Macedonia and for the time being he sticks to that. It’s something that possibly could be accepted by both; Athens has asked for geographical description which northern would be the case. We have some idea that maybe the other side could accept that but they have problems with the identity. What’s the U.S. position on Nimetz’s proposal? Let me add also that your predecessor Dan Fried had asked, at that point, the two sides to go ahead and accept Northern Macedonia. I mean that the U.S. found it reasonable.
Assistant Secretary Gordon: I’m not going to take a position on a specific name or proposal. We support what Nimetz is trying to do. The essential point for us is that it’s something that’s acceptable to both sides, without that it doesn’t work, and even beyond the name there are other aspects of the issue on identity and usage and also this is going to be a multi-faceted agreement, if we can get to an agreement, so I don’t think you can just focus on one element and again the bottom line is we support what Nimetz is trying to do and hope the parties will agree.
Question: Some people have said that if we broaden the issue to more than the name it might be more difficult to come to an agreement. Would that be the case? I mean sometimes (inaudible) constructive ambiguity is used and in this case one could say that, you don’t deal with identity, you agree on a name and you move forward.
Assistant Secretary Gordon: You know, again, there are a lot of ways of doing this. In this debate and in these discussions that have been had, there are more elements than just the name, so inevitably the parties are going to be talking about other aspects of it. In any negotiation, and that’s what this is, requires compromises and trade-offs and so if other elements are discussed as part of the package, and more power to them, and it’s going to be necessary, it’s not just going to be a question of we agree on the name and then that’s it; the package will no doubt be broader than that.
Question: We were told that the Secretary showed more understanding to the Greek sensitivity to the issue during the discussion of the Foreign Ministers in Prague, in April the EU-US, it came up, not from Greek sources, that she actually at some point mentioned (inaudible) that something more than just Macedonia could be accepted. Is this idea of not just a specific name but something added to it, sounds reasonable, without going into the specifics? Or do you have to stick with name the other side which is Republic of Macedonia?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: Again that’s for the parties. There are a lot of different options and so many have been discussed among the parties, with Nimetz. It’s really for the parties to decide.
Question: It seems that the two sides are moving towards the Visa Waiver. We had the agreement signing between FM Bakoyiannis and the Deputy Secretary in Corfu. What’s the next step?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: What’s most important is what has happened here, which is that important progress has been made towards an agreement that we have been trying to conclude for a long time. Signing these agreements is a major step forward and we are confident now that this is going to be done by the end of the year which will be a great thing for Greece and for us.
Question: Is there a possible visit by the Greek Prime Minister to Washington? Is that something that is being worked on for this autumn?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: I don’t have anything to announce on that.
Question: OSCE, the Greek Presidency. Mr. Steinberg said good things about the Greek role. I’m wondering if given Greece’s position now as the President of OSCE, but in more general, having some kind, but not special, but closer relationship to Russia than many other western countries and at the same time being a member of the EU and NATO, could Greece be helpful in some ways, as in trying to find a compromising solution with the international monitors in Georgia. Could Greece play a role that goes beyond its borders, specifically with Russia? What’s your take on this?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: Yes, Greece can play an important role. I think Greece has already distinguished itself as an effective chairmanship of the OSCE. I think that was specifically demonstrated in South Ossetia, where after the conflict the OSCE monitors that had been there, playing an important role were no longer able to operate freely as we need them to and Russia had a very different position from many West European countries and us, and the Greek chairmanship came forward with what we thought was a practical, status neutral proposal which was just what we needed, so that a small number, because we are really only talking about a small number of observers, Russia didn’t agree to the larger number.
Question: More symbolic, I guess, than real?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: No, not just. Symbolic yes, but when you don’t have any eyes on the ground, twenty pairs of eyes on the ground is pretty important. And it’s all we had to know what’s going on there. We were disappointed that Russia didn’t see the Greek proposal for OSCE monitors the way we did, which was as status neutral and simply designed to increase transparency and help with the humanitarian situation on the ground. And I say we, I don’t mean just the United States but I think 50 some members of the OSCE. And that’s regrettable because that means we don’t have any monitors at all in a conflict zone. One of the things the OSCE is for, is for transparency for monitoring situations. It does it very well. I think in that case Greece played a very effective role in designing a status neutral proposal and unfortunately it wasn’t accepted. So we welcome the Greek efforts but we’re disappointed that Russia wasn’t willing to go along.
Question: I guess I know your answer but let me ask it anyway. Would the U.S. at some point down the road look into the possibility of recognizing Abkhazia and South Ossetia?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: No, and not only the United States. Russia plus the executive branch of Nicaragua are the only countries in the world that have recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia. That’s a pretty powerful statement. I mean it’s hard to get the international community to be united on anything and here, even some of Russia’s closest allies haven’t been willing to go along with what most of the rest of the world thinks is an unjustified and illegal recognition. So, I think that in itself says something about the situation there.
Question: Your answer brings me to the next question because the way we see it, it touches upon the other subject of Cyprus; recognition of the Northern part. The world has not done that. I think Pakistan, Turkey definitely, maybe one more country, maybe not. I’m wondering why do you, the U.S., seem more optimistic, because of the Christofias-Talat talks? I mean what’s different now than previous times?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: Well, direct talks between the leaders of two communities is encouraging. It’s better than the absence of direct talks. So, no one wants to overstate optimism. It’s a difficult problem. It’s going on for decades, for a reason; because there are real differences between the parties. But you have to be encouraged when leaders, who have shown themselves to be open-minded and committed to a solution, are talking seriously and directly about a solution. So that’s a positive step. But again no one is naïve about this. It’s going to take real hard work and compromise.
Question: Positive and helpful as opposed to the predecessors Denktas and Papadopoulos?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: It’s clear that direct talks between leaders committed to a solution has a better chance of reaching a solution than when the leaders aren’t so committed to that.
Question: The U.S. has come out openly (inaudible) about Turkey getting into the EU. The EU will review Turkey’s process in December. One of the problems that has to do with Greece and Cyprus, is Cyprus itself and allowing Cypriot ships. Would the U.S., in the effort of getting Turkey into the European Union, encourage Ankara to go ahead with the protocol and allow the Cypriot ships, airplanes to visit?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: We very much want to see a solution of that issue. It stands in the way of Turkey’s accession talks with the European Union which obviously we support, as does the Greek government and a lot of other EU governments, because we think that helps the kind of Turkey that we all want to see. So that’s a serious issue that we take seriously and hope there will be progress on it. Ultimately, of course, this is an EU issue; we’re not directly involved in it. We can talk to the parties, we can encourage people to do things but this is something between the EU and Turkey. The best approach of course would be a Cyprus settlement, because if there were a Cyprus settlement before the end of the year, then that would deal with the ships to ports issue and Turkey and EU accession talks, as hard as they are, would be able to go forward. In the absence of a Cyprus settlement we hope that there can be some other formal progress that would allow a breakthrough on the ships to port issue and we’ll provide whatever help we can. I think the Swedish presidency takes this very seriously. We’ll look for progress and you know the parties need to understand that it’s in their mutual interest to find a way to move forward.
Question: Is the Annan plan dead?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: I believe so. It was put forward to the parties in a referendum, one side voted against it and the UN has left it there. It hasn’t been revived and right now there are direct talks between the parties and nobody is talking about the Annan plan or any successor of the Annan plan. We have moved on from there. The United States supported the Annan plan at the time but that was then and there’s not an Annan plan on the table anymore.
Question: A question that put you in a tough spot during your confirmation process (inaudible). Is the Turkish military an occupation force or is it just a presence?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: You heard what I said in my confirmation hearings that obviously there are some parties to the issue that see it as an occupation force. Turkey sees it as a military presence on the island. The issue, you know we can debate forever exactly what we want to call it. We think it would be a good thing if Turkish forces were reduced on the island. There is no doubt that a Cyprus settlement, (inaudible) in any possible settlement we’ve ever had to look at, would involve a reduction in Turkish forces, and that’s what we are trying to get at, and you know getting into a debate about exactly what to call those forces is probably not useful.
Question: The Greek Cypriots would not be happy with just reduction (inaudible). In a solution it’s kind of surreal to accept a solution where however you call them, they are still on the island.
Assistant Secretary Gordon: You are absolutely right. I’m trying not to prejudge an outcome that’s going to be for the parties to decide. I put it in the softest possible way; which is, in any plan for a settlement would include a reduction. Other plans for a settlement include the departure of all Turkish troops, demilitarization, That you know, that’s another possibility for the parties to work out. But my point is no plan envisages the current presence.
Question: Immigration. The State Department report on human trafficking, if I’m not mistaken (inaudible) illegal immigrants from Turkey and entering the European Union through Greece (inaudible). It’s a big issue, was a big issue in the elections here which allowed the far right to have its support increase. There was an agreement between Athens and Ankara in 2001 to repatriate illegal immigrants. Should Ankara honor that agreement?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: I don’t know the details of that agreement, be happy to look into it, but as a basic proposition we know ourselves what kind of a problem illegal immigration can be for any country. It’s a matter of national security to patrol its borders and it is something that Greece and Turkey, in a friendly relationship, should be able to work out.
Question: Aegean overflights. Now there is a big debate about overflights. Greece has its own position. Turkey has its own position. Many overflights take place between six and ten miles. We feel our space is ten miles. Turkey accepts six, they don’t accept ten. So, between six and ten it’s something which we disagree. Sometimes we bring it to NATO. But lately there have been more, if I should call them provocative actions, on the Turkish side where we have overflights (inaudible) over Greek inhabited islands (inaudible). Can the U.S. encourage to avoid, I mean not getting into six- ten miles debate. But what would be your friendly and allied position on such a thing?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: Well, we do have friendly (inaudible). We have been watching that very closely and frankly we are disturbed by it. It’s a dangerous situation that if it goes on can lead to an accident. Obviously it leads to tensions but even worse, something could happen that could cost lives or damage or seriously erode an important relationship. So we’re disturbed by the recent trend and have engaged already. We obviously have close relationships with both countries and both militaries and we are asking both to show restraint and stand down, and particularly military over flights over inhabited islands, are something we could do without.
Question: Finally, Afghanistan. Greece’s role. Are you satisfied with Greece’s contribution?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: Afghanistan is such a challenging problem. We always welcome increased European contributions, not only and not necessarily military, but civilian, advice. Afghanistan needs more doctors, lawyers, advisors, and Greece is one of our advanced European partners. We welcome whatever contributions Greece can make to what is clearly a foreign policy priority for the United States and the Obama Administration.
Question: And just one more on Terrorism. There was an incident (inaudible) recently where a Policeman was shot dead, and I was wondering whether the U.S. has a position on that (inaudible) terrorism.
Assistant Secretary Gordon: Greece has known the terrorism problem and suffered from terrorism and needs no advice from anyone on dealing with it. We express our condolences to Greece and to the family of the Policeman who was killed and express our solidarity with Greece in dealing with the problem of terrorism.
Question: Is there good cooperation between Athens and Washington in dealing with terrorism?
Assistant Secretary Gordon: I think we stand together and work together very well in dealing with terrorism.
End of Interview